Forced House Painting Redux

Bob,

I do oppose forcing a citizen to paint their house. Most especially when that action will indeed only hurt the poor and elderly. If it is health and safety issue that takes it out of the realm of "me" and puts "you" at risk. An example would be a house that had debris falling onto the sidewalks. It is a danger to the public.

As was stated previously aesthetics are not something that should be ordinanced. Rental properties lower your property values far more that a house on the block that needs a coat of paint. What about the neighbors who are unkempt and look a little ruff? If we want to get into appearances...well where does the invasiveness stop. It is real easy to support an ordinance when it will only affect the other person.

I wouldn't mind the city sending a letter to citizen and saying something to the effect of "we see your house is in need of a paint job and we were wondering if you have plans in the near future......if your in need at this time here is a list of possible avenues of help. We are spending 10,000 dollars a year to impose morals on other people. Why don't we set up a fund to help people in need. If the goal really is to have a more aesthetically pleasing Three Rivers lets truly take positive action. I am perfectly willing to pitch in and help......by the we are looking for a few good volunteers and a few donations to meet the goal of painting a house here in town. (hint,hint,nudge,nudge,wink,wink)

I hope I answered your question and made a good pitch for volunteers all at the same time. If not feel free to give me a call.(number is in the book)

Ronda L. Hicks
Candidate for Commissioner-at-Large



"I never consider a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend." - Thomas Jefferson

bobtoml said: ...and cite the house painting issue as a problem.

I meant to put problem in quotes to make it clear that while some people considered a poorly painted house a problem, I did not. Ronda made part of this point in her post but I would much rather see problems being taken care of without government intervention.

The house painting issue is a great example. Right now we have two paths we can go down. We can punish a family for not taking neighborhood aesthetics into account and possibly force them out of the house or we can get a group of people together, raise the money and fix the problem ourselves. Nobody gets threatened and the neighbors are happy because their prejudice of how a house should be kept is satisfied. Laws and ordinances should be the last resort not the first.

bobtoml said: My interpretation of these statements are that you don't consider property neglect that lowers neighborhood property values as "harm caused by another adult or by some negligence on the part of another"? Would this be a fair assessment and if not, why?

I should have predicated harm with the word physical. I do not consider aesthetics a legitimate reason to use force on another person. Ugly like beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I will never second-guess another mans idea of either.

Put another way, I would never use the force of government to accomplish what I would not do myself. And since I would never walk over to my neighbor and say, "You have an ugly house and I demand that you take care of it immediately." I would not consider using governmental thugs for the same purpose.

In previous posts its been stated that other avenues have been pursued by others to remedy this situation. I think calling the actions the city is pursuing as "first resort" is an unfair description of whats happened. The things I've heard from other sources paired with what I've read in previous posts indicate other avenues have been pursued without results. Knowing I'm not in a position to know all the details, I ask those that do to post what you know.

Referring to this subject as an "aesthetics" issue in my opinion is an unfair description as well. This is more of a maintenance issue, keeping the property from further deterioration.

Ronda said: I am perfectly willing to pitch in and help......by the we are looking for a few good volunteers and a few donations to meet the goal of painting a house here in town. (hint,hint,nudge,nudge,wink,wink)

It would be interesting to know how your actions are received when you make your attempt to organize volunteers and supplies and do the work yourself. I was once where you stand now, and after several years and several hundred dollars and not getting anywhere but taken down a path of deceit, I learned my lesson and now place my support and money to the organizations and government entities better suited to effectively administer the things you want to try to do privately. Good luck in your endeavor!

bobtoml, the case that has received so much attention may not be the best example of what Ronda and I are trying to say because efforts have been made in the past by the city. My point about first/last resort was more in general terms.

It absolutely is about aesthetics. As far as I know peeling paint poses no harm to others in the general vicinity of the house. If there are genuine safety concerns then, yes by all means use force to accomplish the goal.

I was once where you stand now, and after several years and several hundred dollars and not getting anywhere but taken down a path of deceit

That may well be the end result of this particular case also but every effort will be made to accomplish the goal. If it is successful, everyone is happy. If not, we did everything we could to prevent the travesty of a city (possibly) forcing a man out of his home.

It is a real possibility that it may only be Gretta, Ronda and I doing the work but our goal is not to get a pat on the back from others in the area. Our goal is to end this stupid stand off between the commissioners and a citizen of Three Rivers. The possible loss of a little money and a lotta sweat will be well worth it all, if we are successful.

I don't even care whether the man or this city appreciates us for the effort. It is my belief that we are (EDITED CONTENT FROM MY OWN POST TO APPEAR LESS LIKE A JACK A$$, DID IT HELP?) not the appreciative. Whoa I almost hurt myself getting off my high horse. [:D]

Bobtoml touches on a good point here and I hate to even broach the subject because I commend you both for your effort in this matter. Hear me out and consider what I am saying before you make judgment.

You can help paint this gentleman’s house for him and that will indeed satisfy the ultimate goal. If I am available on the date you decide on I’ll be happy to help. But what happens the next time the city issues such notices. If you remember at the meeting it was mentioned that several dozen of these notices went out. All but this residence found a way to address the problem though I’m sure it was not easy for some. I’m not saying you should not help this individual but what about the next time. Are you prepared to be there for a dozen or two home owners who can’t find the time or money? You had mentioned to me, asking the City Manager, Commissioners and possible staff to volunteer. I will help, if I can, as just a neighbor but my recommendation to appointed and elected officials is they will be setting an incredibly dangerous precident if they assist just this one time. The courts look very unfavorably to unequal treatment as they should.

And now for the biggie. Has anyone made this gentleman aware of the potential liability he will be accepting is someone should get hurt on his property? Rule number one when you are hiring professionals is to ensure they are bonded and insured. The fact that the help is voluntary does not relinquish legal responsibility for any accidents that occur. I am not saying I agree with the system just stating how it is. I hate to be so pragmatic about this especially when I know you are just trying to help but being practical was a good virtue for a commissioner to have long before CF came along.


Daryl Griffith
Candidate for Commissioner-At-Large
www.beam.to/griffith

You bring up very good points. In fact, we have considered both issues. The first one is the hardest from me to reconcile in my head. I don't know what we will do if it comes up again. I guess we have to take it one problem at a time and see what happens.

Since it is 100% voluntary I don't think we will be setting any legal precedent that future commissioners will have to worry about. Gretta and other commissioners can go as private citizens which, by the way, I think has already been done once in the case of the house that sits on Peeler and (Grant?).

We have talked about liability a little bit amongst ourselves and I don't think it is a big issue among the 5 who have volunteered so far. Besides I don’t think the man has a lot of money to go after anyway. Other organizations have taken on these kinds of projects in the past so we do have some one to go to for direction on this.

We’ll let you know more as we know more.

Buck, Ronda, and Gretta,

I just want to reiterate this point one more time then I’ll drop it, I promise.

Do you and he understand that in the event of an accidental injury, the injured party’s insurance company is not going to sit around on its laurels and pay out of its own pocket? They will recoup their costs from this gentleman’s homeowners’ policy and/or his personal assets (including the home) through the courts if necessary. They will do this regardless of your wishes or intent. Again, this is very difficult to write given the circumstances and generosity involved but you and he need to understand what the consequences could be in the unfortunate event something should happen.

If nothing goes wrong, his house gets painted at little or no cost, the neighborhood and city are satisfied and we all go home with sore forearms and pray no one tries to take advantage of the generosity of a few kind souls. On the other hand, you are taking one hell of a gamble on this gentleman’s behalf. Should anything go wrong, figuring out how to paint a home will be the least of his concerns. If he does not read the forum I have to insist you make him aware of this. If you and he choose to proceed, let me know what date you are looking at. Our weekends are pretty jammed through the 13th but I realize time is not on your side so I’ll see what I can do.

As for Gretta, other commissioners, or the City Manager assisting. You may remember an analogy I drew when Commissioner Schneider intervened with a business owner “as a citizen and not as a commissioner”. It is akin to a boss hitting on an employee not as a boss but as just a person interested in a relationship. You simply can not severe that link while holding office. If a private residence is under legal order of the city to be painted and an employee of the city volunteers to assist in that endeavor this time but not the next, I fully expect our city to be in court one day to defend that decision.

These are weighty subjects I know, but they do need to be considered.


Daryl Griffith
Candidate for Commissioner-At-Large
www.beam.to/griffith

Ok I just talked to a person familiar with these types of projects and she said the key is to get an existing organization such as the Boy Scouts or Habitat involved. If the organization is willing to take on the project the liability for volunteers would be covered under their umbrella.

Ronda, know anybody from either of these organizations or one similar?

It is beautiful outside today. Would have been a good day to get started painting that house. I had my grill ready and was gonna hunt for that woodchuck, but maybe we can get him next week,if its not raining or cold or snowing or sleeting or severe weather of some sort.[8D]

Mmmmm, nothing like grilled woodchuck in the fall.

You bring up a good point. We are in a race against the weather. Not to mention I would be lying if I said I am not little spooked about the whole project now.

It is almost Halloween, your supposed to get spooked.

Maybe we could see if the city could cut back on their price a little. Say $2000 instead of $3500. Heck that's almost half price. Anybody should be able to afford that.

I wonder how they arrived at that price? Have there ever been estimates done for that property?

Sorry Buck,

Didn't mean to spook you (if it was me), just make sure everyone knew what the risks were. Remember the good ol' days when if you fell off a ladder it was your fault?

Daryl Griffith
Candidate for Commissioner-At-Large
www.beam.to/griffith

I have a friend who is a house painter. He does this and other painting for a living. He painted my house this summer. Total for paint and labor was about $650. My house is smaller than the one we are talking about. But I could have him take a look at it and see what he would do it for.